Beth Wallis: Candidate Franklin, thank you for joining me.
Robert Franklin: I'm so glad to be here.
Wallis: So in the Republican primary, you beat James Taylor by about 10 points. So let's talk about that a little bit. Why do you think that 55% of Republicans entrusted their vote to you?
Franklin: I'm not a political wonk, so I don't really know how to slice and dice and analyze the electorate. But I just sense from what I heard from people and what I experienced over the times that we were kind of going from one end of the state to the other, it was largely educators who coalesced and families of educators who coalesced.
And I think that's perhaps what made the difference, of what Republicans — who some were critical, the Republican Party did not endorse me — and so I think people said, "So then why would we trust him? Why would we believe him? What do we know about him?" And I think it was just educators and the 40-plus years that we've been doing this work. Relationships kind of helped navigate that for us.
Wallis: What message do you have for the other Republicans who didn't vote for you in the primary? Why should they vote for now?
Franklin: I've laughingly said, I've been married to my wife for 47 years, and we would die for one another. We'd run through a brick wall for one another. But I wasn't her first boyfriend, nor her second boyfriend. So, even if I wasn't a first choice or a second choice, just look at the body of work that we've done over the four decades and you'll see measured, thoughtful, collaborative, strong and targeted — you'll see those kind of characteristics through the work that we've done. And that that experience should be perhaps the bell ringer.
Wallis: Candidate Mike Mazzei advanced to be the Republican nominee for governor. If he wins, how do you look forward to working with him, and do any of his policy statements? Give you pause?
Franklin: I heard one yesterday that I kind of celebrated even further. So, he was talking about, in the medical field, and how woeful we are in many far-flung areas in Oklahoma of having medical personnel. And he talked about using tax [incentives] to encourage young doctors to move to Oklahoma or to be a doctor. And my hope is that we could also do that very same thing in a workforce that's at crisis, and that is our teacher education workforce.
And I've boldly said, I think we could perhaps use tax [incentives] to use as a recruiting tool, to use it as a place to say, "We really do value educators differently than we've ever done before. Because we must, because there is a crisis." And that perhaps we should use tax advantages and give educators an opportunity to say we don't have state taxes. If we're looking toward that as a zero tax state anyway, let's start where there's a workforce crisis.
So I'm encouraged by the fact that he has said that. So I know he's a specialist with finance and sees the world from a lens of math, and I think he gets that. So that's an encouraging phenomenon. And I also think he's been ringing a bell over and over again about [how] we know that education is an economic driver, and I couldn't agree more. I worked at Tulsa Tech, and I've seen it. I've watched business and industry who want to lean in with us, but they don't want to just fling money and be spending it like drunken sailors, they want it to be targeted and where it can make a difference, and particularly if it can increase workforce outcomes and product or whatever that sector needs.
And so, I'm looking forward to, if indeed we do both advance, that that would be a harmony that we could agree and make some good moves on.
And he talks about literacy as a carabiner. And certainly we have work to do in that space, and so we'll do that collectively with him. And if a governor and a state superintendent can collaborate and be on the same page, we've got a chance. We've got a chance of making things move in the right direction.
Wallis: And what of his statements or policy proposals give you pause?
Franklin: Well, the one where he — and I don't know what he intended when he said it in a debate — where he called school leaders socialists. I think that's, it's divisive at its core. We don't need to call one another names. We can disagree with one another. We can say that this is what our agenda is. It doesn't align with yours. And we can speak our policy, but we just don't need to use names. And so that one, I think perhaps was, maybe he would like to have that one over. I've said some things in my 44 years that I'd like to have over. So, I'm hoping that that's not how he truly sees the leadership that I've been working with for a really long time in the state of Oklahoma.
Wallis: So the governor chooses who sits on the State Board of Education, which you as state superintendent would lead. I think it's fair to say that Mazzei is significantly farther right than you. How do you work with a board of appointees you may fundamentally disagree with?
Franklin: My hope is that when appointing board members to that significant of a role, that he's looking for globalists — that people that see the same vision that we all see, and that is that you have to celebrate educators differently than we have in the past in order to get different [kinds] of outcomes. We have to celebrate and get learning moving in the right direction in order to drive, ultimately, learning outcomes and workforce readiness in the right direction. My hope is that those are the kind of people that he brings to the table.
I've said from the beginning, let's keep the politics out of the classrooms, out of our school boardrooms. We can have those debates. We could have those discussions on street corners and town halls. We just don't need them here at the center of the work that we're trying to do in schools. That's why I consider myself a candidate who's caught wind with educators to say, maybe it's time that we try this. Rather than having that as a political figure leading that. And I would hope that the same thing would be of the appointees to the board, that that would be the kind of people that would be brought to the table.
Wallis: In your past experience as the chair of the Statewide Virtual Charter School Board, did you have those kinds of moments where you fundamentally disagreed with the board members, but you were still able to come to something productive?
Franklin: We were collegial in every one of those situations, even though I voted no on the St. Isidore matter. I'm still collegial and friendly with the people who voted yes. It wasn't about personalities. It was about policies and it was about rule of law and our constitutional provisions. And thank goodness our state constitution held water on that particular matter. But I think it's still under review, and I think there are those that would really like to see it changed. But until it's changed, I think we, as traditionalists, say let's follow that law. Let's follow the constitutional provision. And then we work differently if it changes.
But it's never been personal for me. It's never personal. I've been in the school business long enough to know. I've had a high school principal long enough to know. You're not going to make a whole lot of people real happy because everybody has a different opinion. And everybody would like to be critical sometimes, but you can't let that detract you from the work that needs to be done. And so at the end of the day, you know, we just need to be more collaborative rather than divisive, and perhaps then we can make some moves.
Wallis: Candidate Cyndi Munson is the Democratic nominee for governor. If she wins, same question. In what ways would you look forward to working with her, and what are your concerns about working with her?
Franklin: I don't know all of her, what I would consider to be educational policies, I've not studied them, but I do know this: she is hardworking, and she's got grit. And I admire that, and I respect that. And I do think that when I do and have heard her speak, that she does talk about being very people-centric and very Oklahoma-focused, and that certainly aligns with who I am and what I do. So, I don't think that we would be on opposite ends of a spectrum. I think we would see collaboratively what needs to be done. And so, that doesn't cause me pause.
I just, again, I've just tried to say over and over again that the politics just doesn't need to be in this role. This is not a political role. I've even said, I can certainly see why we don't need to elect this particular position. Perhaps, maybe we do appoint it, but I do think it needs to be appointed with a broad perspective of how board members get seated and how appointees get, you know, appointed in those seats and how that position gets appointed. It shouldn't just be a titular head of the governor who makes all those decisions to say, "Okay, I'm going to select all the board members, I'm going to select the state superintendent, and then we'll also then make our moves accordingly," because Oklahomans, I don't think have an appetite for that much coalesced power in one particular branch. I think we need to be diffused and get ourselves with a broad perspective so that we can all have a voice at the table.
Wallis: How do you go about doing that? That was actually my next question about an appointed versus an elected superintendent position. If it's appointed, it's probably going to be those who agree with the person appointing them. So how do you divide those kind of perspectives in an appointed position?
Franklin: Yeah, I think there are some states across the nation who have figured that out. That there are boards, sometimes, that have the authority to be a contributor to who gets appointed, or a voice at the table of who gets appointed to the board that goes along with that. And so, I think we just need to be thoughtful about how that process would work. I don't think we need to just rush to saying, "Well, it doesn't need to be elected. We'll just give that all to the governor. The governor will make all those decisions." Because today that might align with most Oklahomans, but then again, it might not. And so, we would find ourselves perhaps in a whipsaw, and I think we've experienced what that looks like even through the election process, these past couple of go-rounds.
We just need to have some stability, and we need to have some consistency, and we need to have a collaborative spirit. And that then will allow, just like it would in a family, just like it would in a church organization, at a university, whatever the business that you're running — if there's harmony and there's collective focus, we have a shot at making progress. If indeed we're divided, we begin to worry more about power brokering, and I just don't have an appetite for that. I just, not at this chapter in my life, and not even in the beginning of my career, I just didn't have a chapter for that. It's "focus on the work at hand."
Wallis: During former state superintendent Ryan Walters' tenure, public comment was often an event. And during the current state superintendent, Lindel Fields, he has removed public comment from board of education meetings. Is that something that you would bring back if you were elected?
Franklin: Yeah, a couple of people have asked that question. And I think when public comment becomes an event, and a chance to show off, and a chance to just espouse whatever it is that's on your mind, I think there are other forms for that. I mean, there's all kinds of social media that people can do. There's all kind of podcasting that people could do. But if indeed it's intentional and thoughtful and it's focused on the agenda at hand, I think public comments are fair. But they have to be measured, they have be thoughtful, and they have to be, what I would consider to be, to the point.
Let's just not get in an [unruly] place where people become just bombastic about what they want to say in front of a whole bunch of other people. It's like, "Oh now I've got a television camera, and I'd like to entertain someone." That's pretty unproductive and disrespectful to everybody else who's there. But I've been on boards myself that have entertained public comments. I have watched them be very functional, and I've watched them be meaningful. I've seen them every once in a while be divisive just by intent, but I think it's fair to bring that back. But again I think that has to be measured and thoughtful about how you design that public comment piece, because it was, it was a carnival. It was a carnival. And we just don't need that.
Wallis: How do you filter then, if everyone has the right to make those comments, or even if there's a lottery, how do you filter out the less productive comments?
Franklin: Yeah, I think, again, first and foremost, you focus the comments on what is on the agenda. Do you have a comment about what's on the agenda? If indeed you're just coming to make a complaint, I don't think that's fair, because there's other ways and other avenues for that complaint to be waged and lodged. So if indeed there's something specific at hand that the board is going to be making a decision about or going to be discussing, then I think it's fair for public comments to be made to that. And so that's what I would simply say, is that there's a way that you can design that to try and help that process stay focused.
Wallis: As state superintendent, you aren't a lawmaker, but you can influence policy through rulemaking. Are there any administrative rules you want the department to adopt or change?
Franklin: Yeah, I think we need to definitely look at the recess piece that just unfolded. I've heard from folks that are on the ground floor watching and monitoring a recess saying, "This is not how this should have been rolled out. This is not helping us." The legislation was well intended, but the actual machinations of how it's being played out and the rulemaking that came along with that are causing breakdowns, causing bus transportation to have to be flipped upside down, meal plans after school to be reorganized, lengthened days, or lengthened the times that students were in classes.
And yet, the question is, to what end did that healthy piece of legislation start out as turn into? Again, in operational details, it probably is not what folks at the onset intended. So I think that one needs to be revisited.
I think we're going to have to look at the third grade Strong Readers Act and say, "How do all the details of that third grade Strong Reader's Act — that is very, very definitive and very straightforward and very strong — how does it look in operations?" And I think we're going to have to figure out, okay, how do we implement this effectively? And so it's going to take some careful, thoughtful process with practitioners on the ground to look at. Because if we're not careful, we will look up and there will be, as many third graders as we have today, if we, by assessment said you don't advance, if you don't pass at the advanced and proficient level, we will increase that number of third graders across our state by as many as 40%, perhaps maybe just 50%.
And all of a sudden that looks really dysfunctional, if we're not careful, because there will be third grade children who may not pass that reading [test] at the proficiency level, who also may be really good at calculation and math. And so, do you make them repeat the third grade and redo the math that they've already done? Or do you allow them to have individualized math instruction that looks more like what they would experience in the fourth grade? Because you're also holding back. So, there are some practitioner things that need to be added to the discussion to say how can we implement this with fidelity. So those are really big pieces.
There are probably a few others, but we're going to try and implement the law with fidelity. We're not going to be up there trying to just swing a hatchet and just say we're going to make a whole bunch of changes. We're going to try and do this with fidelity, but we've got a lot of professional development that we have to put in place. I think we're going to need to put some regional service centers in place across the state to help do the work in professional development across the state. That's going to take some effort and some energy. So we'll have our hands full, there's no doubt. That'll be a lot of work.
Wallis: Superintendent Fields, under his administration, pulled the extended day meal program under the USDA. You had mentioned after school programs. That decision was made because of what the department said was "non-compliance issues" with the federal rules around that program. Is that a decision you agree with, or is that something that you would want to bring back, and I say that as somebody who covered this and spoke to many superintendents who said, this has caused a huge headache for us, you know, to acclimate to what we're supposed to do now. We are going to have kids who don't get fed. We have to change bus schedules. This all happened after school started, the school year started. So is that a policy that should have been done that way, or would you have done it differently?
Franklin: I think we need to look at all the details of how that decision was made. I'm not trying to be critical of Lindel Fields and his decision of how he went at that. I'm sure he had advisors that were reminding him and legally advised accordingly. But I will say, if we can figure out how to meet the federal regulatory guidelines and if we have enough support to make it work. And if we can do it with fidelity, we need to be providing those kind of meal supports.
I hate the fact that we turned down summer feeding programs in years past. Those things are, I think, in one respect, you can say it's a conservative, practical application of how we don't have to take care of our brothers and sisters because that's mom and dad's responsibility. I also know that there's a lot of young folks and a lot of families that struggle with meal insecurity, and we need to try and meet that need. And if there are federal dollars that we can use, I would rather use our federal tax dollars on our families and our students than I would rather them be turned to some other state to use for their families and their children. So if we can figure out how to make that work and do it with fidelity, then we need to do it.
Wallis: What policy initiatives do you want the Oklahoma state legislature to take up next spring during the legislative session?
Franklin: I'd really like for them to consider that conversation about how we put in these regional service centers. I think that would maybe require a little bit of legislation, certainly a little bit of funding, not in an inordinate amount, because I think there are some collaborative partners that can help us do that work.
I'd like for them to consider that conversation about tax [incentives] for teachers. I think there could be some real utility that could go a long way to try and help recruit and retain our educators.
And I'd also like for them to consider this conversation about, perhaps, helping us support a concurrent enrollment strategy whereby seniors in high school who are taking — much like they do at Union High School in their Teacher Academy program under the design and heavy lifting of our National Teacher of the Year, Rebecca Peterson. She's a math teacher, a specialist. She's taught and supported educators all over the state, all over the country, even gone across the country. She's even gone across the globe, helping teachers do this work and school districts think about how to do really heavy lifting in schools. She's an ambassador, we just haven't used her.
But she has created, in partnership with Union Public Schools, a teacher academy model. Seventy-five seniors are taking her class on Mondays and Fridays. They do all of the pedagogy that they would at a university. How you design lessons, how you deal with behavioral issues, how you talk about scope and sequence. She does all of that work on Mondays and Fridays. Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, they're doing their internships in elementary schools and in middle schools. All of these young people have said, we want to be an educator, or we're considering being an educator. That ought to be a concurrent enrollment class. It ought to look just like a concurrent enrollment class of freshman composition or psychology or U.S. History because students are able to do that now and get a head start on the college trajectory. That's a class that you would take in a teacher prep program at Northeastern State University at University of Central Oklahoma.
So if we can skinny down the work that they would have to do in the university on a teacher pipeline pathway and we can make that a concurrent enrollment class and also put tutorial supports with seniors that are interested in becoming teachers, I think there's some legislation that could go along with that. And we probably have to work with the Higher Learning Commission, work with our university partners. But I think that could be an amazing thing that we could scale, and it wouldn't cost us hardly anything. And it may save us some dollars, particularly when it's all said and done, at the university level.
If we can get that done when they're a senior in high school, they're already on their way, those young people ought to be snatched up like an NIL athlete and say, "We've got a scholarship for you, because we are not going to let you get away from us. You need to be an educator. And let's make this happen." You can do that at Norman, and Watonga, and Colgate. And every little school that you go to, there are people who say, I would like to be a teacher. Every large school, every suburban school, there are people who want to be educators. And we just need to foster that and make that happen. So that's a start. That's a start.
Wallis: The board has recently granted dozens and dozens of exceptions for school librarian positions because there is such a shortage of school librarians, school media center specialists across the state. Is there anything that you could do in your position as state superintendent to help boost the population of media center specialists in Oklahoma?
Franklin: I think we have to start talking a lot about how AI begins to influence the work that we do, about all the technology that's at the doorstep. I mean, we want to say that we would like for students to have less screen time, but the classical way of teaching children with a textbook in front of them and a pencil in their hand, that's a bygone era.
I know there are people, there are classical theorists who say, "No, no, we need to get back to that, we need to limit screen time." And we do. Meaningless screen time. But there [are] meaningful targeted things that can happen through technology that can create really, really strong learning outcomes, can really customize a child's and a student's learning trajectory.
And so, media specialists have to become really the specialists who help us navigate that place and help train other educators about how to use that technology, not as a crutch, but as a really strong learning tool. And so from that standpoint, I think we have to invest in those folks that want to do this work, that are interested in saying, "I want to learn more about how AI works." So perhaps there are some [incentives] that you could add to that from a place of stipends and the like.
But the reality is, it's a workforce shortage issue. I mean, all of a sudden we start granting exceptions because we are so woefully short in the number of people that are in those seats who might aspire to want to do this work. We've got to rebuild the pipeline, and what we're doing here, we're trying to put Band-Aids on things by giving exceptions and making some regulatory, what I would consider to be workarounds, and it's simply because we're just so short-handed. And so we've got work to do.
But certainly, those media center specialists and those librarians, they can help us lead the way on how technology begins to be transformative, and in addition, to put literacy front and center. Literacy is obviously, you know, a calling, a call to action. It's a clarion call in our state, and we are not meeting that muster. And so, they can be ambassadors in that work as well, particularly in those early grades. You know, our literacy specialist that is also helping us in our libraries and our media centers, it's not just going and checking out books. That's, again, a bygone era. There's so much work for those folks to help us do.
Wallis: Why should Oklahomans vote for you over your opponent, Jennettie Marshall?
Franklin: Oh, my goodness. I don't know Dr. Marshall well. I just know what I've heard her say about her background. She served on the Tulsa Board. I understand that. I've served on a statewide board. I've made some really tough decisions on a statewide board. I called for audits. I've voted no. I watched it go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court on a decision that I've made. So I know what good board service looks like. So that's not a factor of concern at all. I think it's important to have that board experience.
But I also know that she's not been an educator, she's not been a principal, she has not been in the CareerTech setting. She's not led large grants, she's not worked with business and industry partners to bring programs to schools and in partnership with business in industry. And so, all I'm simply saying is, much if I were looking for someone to build my dream home. I would want someone who's done that work before, before I commission them to build their first home as a leader.
And so I would just simply say, it's time for someone with experience to give that a run at the State Department of Education. It is too big of an opportunity to fail again. We will not fail because we will celebrate educators at every turn. We will bring people that are thoughtful, tactical, and experienced to the table to help us make decisions. And we will work collaboratively with legislators and with the executive branch to say, "We have work to do. Let's begin by working collaboratively and focus on the goals. Let's develop a strategic plan and then build the legislation around that rather than being reactive to the legislation. Let's build a strategic plant with all of those key stakeholders, including moms and dads and business and energy partners, tribal leaders. Let's do that work." And we've not done that. We've not done that in a very, very long time, if ever in our State Department of Education. I think we just need to give that a try.
So, from a place of what I bring to the table, it's experience, versus what Dr. Marshall is bringing to the table. Both equally passionate about what needs to be done. Just, I think, we need someone with experience in this space.
Wallis: Republican nominee for state superintendent, Robert Franklin. Thank you for joining me.
Franklin: Hey, thanks for the opportunity, I appreciate it.
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