Lisa Lyons still remembers how shocked she was when she learned how much she owed the state after her time in prison.
Lyons spent several stints in and out of Oklahoma prisons on drug-related charges. But one charge for making methamphetamine was different.
“I had no idea that one fine was $50,000,” she said. “It was a head spinner. I think when I made my arrangements, I was like, ‘OK, I’m going to pay $75.’ Well, that lasted for about two months, and then I went back and said, ‘I need to pay less.”
Lyons eventually got help through Legal Aid Services of Oklahoma, which provides representation to indigent state residents. She was able to get her last $46,000 waived.
Lyons now works at John Zink, an industrial supplier.
Attorneys at Legal Aid Services say the size of Lyons’ fine didn’t matter — she wouldn’t have known it until after she agreed to pay. That’s because defendants aren’t necessarily told fines and costs, which are specific to each criminal case, before they agree to pay the total amount.
“You would agree to a lot of things to avoid incarceration or a loss of freedom, family, everything that could be on the line if you don’t agree to that,” said Legal Aid attorney Lauren Beatty.
'It’s super defeating’
For Nicole Ratcliffe, the unknown fines and costs were just another blow once she got out of prison.
Since 2009, Ratcliffe has been convicted of 27 felony counts, many of them for using or dealing drugs. Today, she’s three years clean and works a steady job to support her children as she pays off her court expenses. She currently owes more than $40,000 to the state.
“You have to figure in bills, gas, you know — the basic necessities on top of two children. And then I also have to look at the fact that I have these fines and costs that I have to pay back because potentially, I could end up back in jail, and then what are my kids going to do?” she said.
Ariel Moore of the Center of Social Innovation at Oklahoma State University told lawmakers in October that court fees — which defendants do know about before agreeing to pay them — are burdensome by themselves. Moore estimated the people paying them off typically aren’t relying on an income to do it – they're instead using things like financial aid or letting their taxes get intercepted.
“(That’s) money they could be using on their families because they have small children,” Moore said.
And that’s just how much defendants know they owe before they agree to pay.
“You go and you get the (fines and costs) paper, and it’s super defeating, like, ‘I just got out. I don’t have a job, I don’t have anywhere to stay. I’m trying to figure it out,’” Ratcliffe said.
Republican State Rep. Justin Humphrey (R-Lane), a probation officer in southeast Oklahoma before becoming a lawmaker, said most defendants agree to pay whatever they owe not because they can afford it, but out of obligation.
Humphrey said his clients were usually poor, too.
"I used to read those and go, ‘You owe $30,000 in court costs and fines,’ and they’d go, ‘$30,000?’ and scream. And I’d go, ‘Oh, I misread that. It’s $3,000.’ And they’d go, ‘Oh, OK, $3,000. Not so bad.’ Well guess what? If you had told them $3,000, they would have squealed just like $30,000,” Humphrey said. “But for these people, $3,000 is $30,000.”
“Historically, we’ve just been re-locking people up for failure to pay, so we’ve been creating a larger problem than we have been on the collection side,” Oklahoma Public Safety Secretary Tricia Everest said at a legislative meeting on fees in October.
Everest said state officials have been working to undo “a compounded system of a debtor’s prison” in Oklahoma. For example, the Department of Corrections collects only 15% of owed fines and fees, she said.
“We could collect a lot more money if we would work with them, make the payment reasonable, reasonable fines, reasonable costs, and then help them pay it,” Humphrey said.
'Are you going to buy a house and not know what your points are?’
To Humphrey’s knowledge, there haven’t been any efforts to change state law so defendants are told how much they owe in total before they agree.
Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler says attorneys locally have the information to estimate fines and costs for their clients. The onus to do this usually falls on public defenders who serve impoverished defendants.
“It’s something I would think any defense attorney would tell your client. But I suspect, everyone glosses over that,” Kunzweiler said.
The Tulsa County Public Defender’s Office did not immediately respond to KWGS’ request for comment on the matter.
Humphrey believes requiring courts to tell defendants the full amount owed should be part of larger efforts at the state level to address court costs. He said not telling them the full amount is another way the legal system is “setting people up” to possibly return to prison.
“Are you going to buy a house and not know what your points are, not know what the interest is, not know what the closing fees are and all those kind of things? I’m personally not,” Humphrey said.
Lyons and Ratcliffe believe telling the full amount they owe before agreeing to pay it is a way to help defendants who want to do right.
"If somebody is really trying, I think that needs to be taken into consideration,” Ratcliffe said.
